Ep 298 - Replay - Branded NOT Blanded with Dan Antonelli

0:04 Hello and welcome to another episode of Electrepreneur Secrets, the Electrician's Podcast. I'm your host, clay Neumeier, with me, as always, my esteemed host, co-host, rather, joseph the sales bot, lou Canney. And today we have an extra special guest On our mission to help you master sales, simplify pricing and deliver premium level service. Who better to bring in than a premium service provider himself for all of us, right? And he just wrote this book Branded, not Blanded, dan Antonelli, from Kickcharged. Welcome, dan. What's up guys? So happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

0:45 Truly our pleasure. We've got a great show to unpack for you guys. And, just like we were saying pre-show, dan, there's this conversation that continues around the electrical circles and, knowing you serve electricians too right, like our very own, colin Allen, who had such great branding and wraps designed by you, the whole thing looks fantastic. But the question always comes down to this Should I be just going to Fiverr with my brand and going cheap and just getting the most affordable brandy I can get, or should I be going with an all-star, proven track record, like Kick, charge and yourself? So I want to unravel that mystery today. I want to talk about that, obviously, with you. Here there's going to be a bias.

1:26 This is a slight, ever so slight right. But we also teach marketing and sales, and so there's a huge piece of unraveling and incorporating the story, our person and the persona that we bring forward into those brands. So that's something that we really admire about you. How can we begin this conversation, dan? I want to put the ball in your court about the difference and maybe some of the things that you see going wrong when we go cheap, versus really investing in that brand and that story. Sure, well, I mean first off. I mean on the positives of crowdsourcing. You know you could say, hey, we'll get a lot of different options to look at, we'll see many different varieties of styles and things like that.

2:12 So I mean that that can be a positive because you'll, you'll, you'll have many things to pick from. But if you look at the economics of the people that are working behind the scenes to actually produce those designs, you have to remember first of all, let's say, you get 50 people to participate in your contest, at that point You've got 49 people who basically work for free and get paid zero. So if you're okay with that concept which to me seems rather unfair to a certain extent but now you have to recognize that, if you're one of those 49 people, how many contests can you enter per day and how many shortcuts are you going to need to take in order to actually try to make a living on that type of platform?

3:02 Try to make a living on that type of platform? And so the shortcuts that we tend to see are a lot of. The shortcuts are essentially blatant trademark infringement, meaning I see a logo that exists somewhere else. I'm going to basically copy 90% of the elements on that existing logo and I'm simply going to change the name and put your name in there. Then you may love it and buy it and then not even know or realize that it's actually the intellectual property of someone else. We've seen, unfortunately, countless examples of folks who have crowdsourced their branding, wrapped several trucks, only to be served the cease and desist later on.

3:51 When the actual owner of that intellectual property enforces their trademark and you have no recourse, fiverr will not reimburse you. Good luck with the guy who designed it for you and tracking him down and saying hey, dude, you sold me a logo that belongs to someone else. Can you reimburse me for the $15,000, $25,000 worth of wraps that I just invested in? So there's definitely a sense of risk involved. Has it ever worked? I'm not going to sit here and tell you it's never worked, but I think you also have to really understand a lot of the fundamentals of what branding really is and recognize that those platforms don't really dive deep enough into that.

4:41 Now, if you're starting, you have no money, you have no budget I would probably recommend or rather you go to actually maybe go to the sign company then or the wrap company and work with him At least in that environment you have perhaps the ability to have recourse if something goes horribly wrong, like trademark infringement. We had this happen it was a week ago and the and like the poor guy posted it. He was so proud of his new logo, he posted it on on house call pros and it was a rip off of one of our brands, like blatant, like it wasn't, and I don't know that the guy knew, you know, he didn't know at that point, and he went to a sign company that basically had stolen the work from us and then just put his name on it.

5:24 And so it was kind of sad in a way, because you know, the poor guy was so proud of it and everything, and now he's really going to have to, unfortunately, take it all off and our client, you know, sent them a cease and desist and that stuff. So there's those inherent risks in it. And then you also just have to me, branding is a dialogue that you have with people, and those platforms don't don't support that dialogue. And so you also are putting the, the, the job and the task of deciding what is in your own company's best interest on you. Now that, then I would liken that to me trying to figure out. You know how I, you know upgrade my 200 amp circuit or my 200 amp panel into a 400 amp.

6:11 You know, and you know you watched a couple of YouTube's trying to figure out how to do that. You know, and so there's that element of risk as well, in the sense that are you actually even qualified to make that decision? Do you have enough knowledge about who the brand needs to speak to, how it needs to effectively work on a truck wrap, how it needs to translate on a business card, on a website, all these other things? Are you qualified to make that decision? Then maybe that platform is okay for you, but a lot of times most owners don't really understand the implications of it. They don't understand how to leverage it into a larger brand story, what it means for culture, what it means for recruitment, all those aspects of it.

6:55 So, again, not everyone can afford to hire a branding agency and certainly we understand and respect that. And that's really one of the reasons why I wrote the book, because I wanted to at least try to give a roadmap for someone that is either brand new and deciding to go out on their own. And how do I do this? What are the things I should be looking at? And so all the knowledge that I think I've accumulated over the last 20 years or so working with home service companies, I basically just put everything I could into that book to try to help them understand really who it is we're targeting. This stuff about consumer psychology behind purchases, and you guys understand a lot about branding too, as far as how much easier it is to sell and to increase your average tickets and to have Mrs Jones feel value in what you provide when you have a better brand, like if you don't, it's very difficult to increase your average tickets, very difficult to show value, because there's a low expectation about what it is that you deliver.

8:01 So all those a lot of those you know, I think really important nuggets of information are in the book. And the other really critical part of the brand is the idea that you know the weaker the brand, the more money you will ultimately spend to market it. So I tend to look. You know, if we're still talking about Fiverr in those environments, I always kind of say, you know, half jokingly, that the most expensive logo logo you'll ever buy is one you paid the least for, because it may feel like, oh, this is great, like I saved so much money, but now maybe you've got a double year AdWords spend because nobody knows who you are or they can't read your truck wrap.

8:46 Or maybe you got to spend so much more on recruitment because no one wants to work for you, because it doesn't look like a place I want to work, so it costs you so much more down the road. It just may not be immediately apparent at the onset as to why this is an investment you would preferably do from day one. And then you have the added cost of just doing everything over. So you come to me and you're already a million dollar shop and you've got six trucks on the road and now we have to redo everything, and so you've got the cost of redoing everything also to factor into that. So that was a whole. sorry if that was a little bit rambling, but no, that's good, that's good, that's a great all good I want to call a time out there anyway, because there's so much value in what you just said.

9:29 But I'm also seeing a parallel and I'm thinking joe's thinking the same thing. Yeah I want to jump on premium service providers, even guys trying to bring that game to the next level, are sitting here cursing the guys that don't that come under, pricing themselves, pricing themselves out and driving that rat race and we'll push them out and then personally go and make this maybe less than ideal investment, joe. Is that what you were thinking there too? So I actually wanted to say two things. One, I wanted to say the obvious, which was Dan, you have a lot of value, but something that really stood out was you made an accurate 200 to 400 amp reference for a non-electrician. I mean, I'm sitting there like my first thought was who's YouTubing a 400 amp service.

10:11 But you're right, crazy, right, dan is. I actually wanted to particularly stitch your book because you said something in particular that really stood out, which was when they say branding is expensive, consider how expensive poor branding is for so many service companies. I read that and I was like it's so true, because you're right. Like personally, I remember doing when we did the wraps in our company. We were just doing with a heat gun that we printed out of a vinyl shop in our driveway at a condo. There was nothing special at the time, but at the same time, if your brand doesn't stand out, I can imagine that you're actually paying for it throughout the years, because if you're unremarkable and people can't say why should I use you, I can't see the reason for it.

11:01 Yeah, and I'll give you just a real quick example about that. Like it's a client of ours that had crowdsourced their logo and um put on their truck and if I showed it to you you would say, yeah, you know, it looks okay, it was like orange and it was. It was, uh, legible. And I think, joe, you might've been at one of the workshops that I was speaking at and you might've seen this example. But they it was kind of a weird last name brand and they, um, they, they had a call tracking number on it and so they knew exactly how much revenue were attributed to the truck wraps and and this is the sad part of it it was actually zero for nine months.

11:46 So not a single phone call for nine months. We redesigned the whole thing. We created a mascot that related back to their name. We made it very fun, very memorable, very disruptive, and I think it was 83 or 80 something phone calls directly attributed to the new truck wraps within six months of launching. So you know okay. So yeah, it was cheap for me to get the initial logo crowdsourced. I still had to pay to get the wrap done. But now, six months later, you know I've got no phone calls from this endeavor, and so you, and so we have so many of those examples where it's literally like night and day, especially if you have metrics via call tracking.

12:32 Just another guy yesterday it was the same thing, it was like crazy numbers and he had a white van, which I talk about in the book about white van syndrome, and then we did something very impactful, very colorful, and again his numbers were like a 10x. I think it was an 11x increase in revenue within the first year, directly attributed to the new branding. So you know, again, he had vinyl lettering on a white truck. So it's maybe not a great comparison to a full wrap, but nonetheless that's what he thought he needed to be doing, like, hey, I'm in business, let me get some lettering on my white van, and people will call me because of that, and you know, of course, no one did and so like a lot of that. So when we talk about how much it costs, you know to not do it.

13:16 Well, that's part of the cost is just okay. So he didn't get any phone calls from the truck. So what did he have to do? Well, then he had to find lead sources elsewhere. He had to spend more money with his SEO company had to spend more money on GMB. All these things relate back to the deficiency of the branding from day one. So obviously, again, not everyone can go into it day one, investing in a branding. If you can, I think it's the smartest thing you'll do, because it'll it'll just pay, pay off within very quickly. It'll it'll pay for itself. But if you can't, you know, just recognize, at a certain point, the longer you wait to do it, just the more expensive it becomes.

13:58 There's just more things you have to do over, more things you have to change. That's even why naming like the biggest chapter in the whole book, I think is on naming, and that's a critical aspect as well where, hey, I've been working as a helper for someone, I finally got my own license, I'm going out on my own. What am I going to call it? I'm going to call it, you know, I'm going to call it Jay Lucchini Electrical. Okay, because no one else has got that name right and it's because of me and I'm super proud. It's my name and that's what I'm going to call it. And again, we talk about last name brands. What's the challenge with them? Why that's not a good idea and we go through that. So, again, like I almost wish this was like required reading for anyone that's thinking about starting their own home service business.

14:43 You know, read this and I think that it'll save you just a ton of heartache down the road. Yeah, go ahead. I just want to throw one thing in there, if that's okay, cause you mentioned last name brands, but there was one last name that, if it's okay, if I stitch for a second Bueller, it's one of those Bueller. exception to the rule. Exception to the rule, it's one of those things. Jason's a great guy, really really good dude. I've got nothing but good things to say about him. But you think about the brand and you're like okay, you see this big head on the side of your van and stay cooler with Bueller. Like okay, that sounds like you take a last name brand that actually sticks with something. Yeah, and let's talk about him for a second, because he's a great example of the idea of again investing in the branding and then not needing to spend as much money on advertising.

15:32 So he was in business about 10 years before he came to us. He was at about $2.5 million in revenue. So it took him almost 10 years to get to two and a half million dollars in revenue. And his previous name was Air Source America, and we joke about that because it sounds like a oxygen supply company instead of like a heating and air company. So when he came to us, he's like when I finished a job, the customer he didn't know the name of the company. They would always say what's the name of your company again, but they remembered Bueller right, Because obviously a lot of people would remember Bueller. So we decided to rename him as Bueller and the beauty of, I think, his story is that he's gone from $2.5 million to, I think, $16 million $17 million in revenue in about five years, but he's done it on an ad spend of less than 5%.

16:23 So you see a lot of people talking online and a lot of people say, oh, what percentage of revenue should I spend on advertising? And you'll see some pretty crazy ranges of what people say you should be doing. And I certainly understand that there's some variables at play and different markets might be more expensive than other markets. But when people are like, well, you have to spend 10% to grow, I'm like, well, maybe you need to spend 10% to grow if you got a shitty brand. Honestly, that's the bottom line, because how did Bueller grow on a 5% spend and basically 5x the business in five years? How did he do that? I would consider that to be pretty good growth two and a half to 16, 17 million.

17:07 Why did it happen? Because his brand became sticky in the consumer's minds. They knew the name of the company to call before when they needed service. It's not like they went on Google and they were typing air conditioning repair, jacksonville, florida. They were just typing in Bueller. So how much easier it is for you to show up at the top of a branded search keyword versus an unbranded search keyword. It's super easy, especially on a last name brand like that that is so unique. So that's why he spends not nearly as much of digital in comparison to other companies. He doesn't need to. So when you're out there and you're virtually invisible because the branding is virtually invisible, not disruptive, not memorable, not sticky it's going to cost you a shit ton more money to show up on the top of Google for all these search queries that are unbranded.

17:58 I mean, that's just the reality of it. But wouldn't it be better if they knew your name when they needed service? I feel like some of this is painfully obvious, but it's not really, because people don't really talk about it. But if you really think about it, well, of course, if Mrs Jones continues to see my truck through the neighborhood, it's sticky and memorable. She may not need service that day. But when she's ready for service, then that's when she relies on memory and the repetition of something. And so those bold, impactful graphics whether it's a mascot-based brand or whether it's a non-mascot-based brand, whatever it is something that's sticky and memorable is what will help her in recognition and remembering when she needs service.

18:39 And also, you got to remember, too, that the brand is communicating something to her about the experience she might get before you even have an opportunity to ring the doorbell. So what, what we do is we really are ultimately trying to control what she believes about you, like that's that's you know, it's it's I want her to understand, or feel like before you get to ring the doorbell, before she even calls and talks to a CSR, she's already established in her mind a certain expectation of what it's like to do business with your company. And if that experience and expectation is based on the idea that you're a professional, you're honest, you're trustworthy, those are all the fears that she has about who's coming to her home.

19:21 So how does the brand speak to those fears? How does it allay her concerns? So all the brand again is doing is trying to make her feel comfortable with who's coming through. That's why mascot brands tend to do well? Because it exudes a certain sense of comfort to her. It feels a little bit more warm. Right, you want to do something that's super aggressive with a big, bold mascot that looks like it's going to beat the shit out of you? Well now? Well now, you're not really addressing her fears. She's already scared about who's coming to her home. Why do I want to make her feel more intimidated by having some bold, you know, aggressive, muscled mascot dude on the side of my van? Like now, I'm reinforcing the fact that, oh shit, like I hope this guy's not gonna, you know, be a psycho when he comes to my home, you know, wouldn't.

20:06 Wouldn't you rather have like a teddy bear as your mascot rather than a muscled guy that's running at you with a wrench? you know so definitely we talk about or a lightning bolt for our guys, or a lightning bolt yeah. So we talk about, you know, controlling those first impressions and using the brand as a mechanism to become sticky and then also have her feel something. So if that's parked on my neighbor's driveway and I drive by and I see it, first of all that proximity is helping, because now I see my neighbor used you and that helps. So the local proximity part of branding is really important. But if I see it, what do I? Think they're getting a shitty job. Those guys must be cheap or wow, I bet you they're getting something really cool done there and those guys look like they know what they're doing.

20:53 That all factors into exactly what goes through their minds when they see something. So when you see some of the stuff that's poorly executed know, poorly executed you know I feel bad for the sales guy that rings the doorbell with with you know, a shitty uniform and and and a crappy truck wrap. You know you've got. Now you've got to overcome what she already thinks about you and she doesn't think you know much about you. Maybe she's neutral about you, but you've got to work to overcome that. You know you've got to use selling techniques and you've got to really figure out a way to how to make her feel confident in you. But I'd rather you ring the doorbell and she already thinks you're freaking amazing. You know like, oh my God, these guys are great, these guys are going to be amazing. He's so you know, I'm so comfortable with him, like all those things.

21:34 But if I can have her think that before you get there, even better. That's awesome. This is a fucking clinic. Can I just say that Go ahead, Joe, please jump in there. No, I was going to say and Clay, I want to give you the moment on that as well but he actually speaking about part of our process which is so important, which is the pre arrival step, where literally what we're doing is, before you even ring the bell, before we even show up at the customer driveway, we have certain steps to take so that we're making sure we're walking in as a 10. Now, because, think about it I mean you just said it yourself If you show up in a shitty uniform, you're already going on one foot back. You're not showing up as a 10. , you're showing up as, like, maybe, an eight or a nine. You've got to try to regain those points.

22:15 And you're on defense? Exactly yeah, and there's already this situation no-transcript. And it's one of the questions I had for you, dan, because even when I'm on kickchargecom, on the Kick Charge creative site, I'm seeing more than just people in suits that are professionals at their job.

22:58 That's not what I see here. I see a family, I see a team, I see a picture of there's a funny Christmas party sweater one. There's all these examples of personification. You just talk for a moment on how important it is to bring that person and that story forward. I know you've addressed this a bit already, but you seem to be a master at this specifically. Yeah, well, I think the other part of it too, as it relates to that question, is the idea of how important brand is to culture. So, you know, we're really proud of the culture that we have here and what we've been able to build. I mean, for me and the people here, it's the coolest thing in the world to be able to change the lives of people who hire you.

23:41 Like there's just no better thing I think that you can be doing and and you know we're so grateful that every day we get to do that Like it's such a cool thing. Like you know, we, you know we have clients that you know have grown substantially, been able to hire so many more people, pay their people better, like all those things are affecting this positive change. So to be able to be surrounded with a team that really believes in that and a lot of these, the people here personally, you know they, they, they worked for larger companies in the advertising space but like, okay, so we did a cool ad for Verizon. Like whose lives did I change in that process? You know they sold more, more, more phones, like okay, or you know, whatever.

24:24 So so the idea of you know what we do, you know and the ability to affect this positive change is why a lot of people are here, but certainly we. We know how critical it is to create an environment where you know I feel like I have teammates I mean, I'm the boss, I guess but I never refer to my people as employees, like they're not employees of mine, they're just people I work alongside of every day and they just perform amazing work every day and they're passionate about what they do. But to the other point about branding and culture too, not just from what it means for us here but for our clients is you know, you think about clients?

25:09 Don't come to us and say, hey, hey, dan, you know we love your work. We want you to build a new brand because we're trying to create a better culture. Like, nobody ever says that they say hey, we love your work, you do bad-ass truck wraps and logos and brochures, whatever we want to. We want to get a new, a new brand from you. And then what they find out is on the on the end of this experience, like when we're done with the branding, what that actually means from a cultural perspective, what that means to their employees, how it makes their employees feel to put on the uniform now how it makes their employees, you know, recognize this mission that they're on and what the company really stands for.

25:51 So even like taglines, like when we did the branding for Amanda Triolo at Grasshopper which is a crazy story, you know, basically 100,000 a year in residential to 20 million in two and a half years I mean just crazy numbers and that was a renaming, it was a name I came up with. They used to be called Initial Base, it was PMA Mechanical I think it's in the book, I talk about it in the book and so we renamed her the company Grasshopper, because PMA Mechanical was obviously sounded more commercial and she wanted to do more residential. But the idea of the grasshopper as being an insect that actually only moves forward, so her whole brand story revolves around the idea that forward is a way of life.

26:35 So not only does that messaging speak to the consumer, but it also speaks to the employees. We as an organization will always be moving forward, um, and we will always be striving to do better and improve ourselves, um, and so it it basically becomes this rallying cry for all their people. And I and I had the uh, the um, the benefit of going to her office and seeing the incredible space we designed, all their wall wraps and and the space of the inside of their their their location, and just seeing the incredible space we designed, all their wall wraps and the space of the inside of their location, and just seeing the enthusiasm of the people and the vibe. And there's zero chance that that would have happened under PMA Mechanical, because there is no story, there is no vibe.

27:19 And that's again the challenge. With some names that don't even evoke any specific feeling or emotion, it's very hard to craft a story. You can craft a story to anything, don't get me wrong. Like we did the branding for gettle, so it's gettles what the largest hvac company in the country, maybe the world, I don't know. So we did the branding for them and they crafted a story around the boy that we drew holding the flashlight and everything like that. But there was a lot of money involved in crafting that story, a lot of money spent on advertising, and so for the smaller guy that maybe doesn't have a huge budget to put out TV commercials and newspaper ads and things like that, I need the brand to do so much more, so much quicker and so much cheaper.

28:02 Basically, is is the other part of it. So, um, but yeah, I hope that answers your question. A little bit clay there oh, 100, man, 100. That's one of the things I love about the mascot, too is and just to touch on this again maybe people come to you thinking they want more clients, but what they also find is more recruitment, more attraction exactly, yeah in the law of attraction. We've built programs around teaching how to build attraction up. Just like as an electrician walking into the supply house, there seems to be a couple types of guys. You can go, boots unlaced with steel, toes exposed, flopping in there, grab a donut and a coffee and go, hey boys. Grab a donut and a coffee and go, hey boys. Or you can go in there fully suited dressed to the nines ready for your day, proud and happy to serve today, because service is the highest form of distinction.

28:51 And everyone else, in their boots, with the donut half in their mouth, is looking at you on the way in and the way out going. Wow, yeah. And you see that all the time when, when you know owners are complaining we can't get anybody to work for us and this isn't the case in every instance but sometimes you look at their branding, look at the truck they're going to drive, look at the uniform the guys are going to wear, and I'm like it doesn't look like a place I would want to work either, and it's not all about the money I get the money is a piece of it the salaries and what you're going to pay people but sometimes it just doesn't look like a place I want to be a part of. Like Amanda at Grasshopper, she doesn't have a recruitment problem. Believe me, she doesn't have a recruitment problem. You walk in that space and you want to be a part of what's going on, because there's some crazy shit going on there, right?

29:35 So she doesn't have the same kind of recruitment problem that some of these other companies have, because she's invested in the culture, she's invested in the branch, invested in having people feel valued there, and so she has more people just walking in trying to get a job there than worrying about. I got to place an ad because I need 10 more, you know, 10 more technicians, you know, and she's in Albany also, by the way, and I'm not I'm not dishing the way I said Albany sounds like it's a terrible place. What I mean by that it's a. It's a. It's a small place, right? So to start pushing $20 million in a in a small city like that, it's just. It's not like she's in Vegas or in orange County, california, right?

30:15 So, like, just showed you the, the impact that you can have in even a small community, when, when the branding is done and she's basically again almost from zero to that amount, is is, you know, I think, unheard of. And in in my mind, like I think she's going to be known as one of the greatest home service operators that ever lived, and I and I've known hundreds thousands of them and I I just haven't seen anyone do what she's doing quite the way that she's doing and I what she's doing quite the way that she's doing it. I think she's amazing. It's amazing. I appreciate that there's still a brand and a story that we haven't touched on. That I do want to deep dive in on here today, and very specific reasons. Good reasons, as we listen to your expertise.

30:56 Speaking of expertise, I mean you didn't just wake up today with all this knowledge. You didn't just wake up today with all this knowledge. In fact, I believe, if I'm following your social media correctly, you just celebrated 28 years of developing. What kick charge is today. Can you touch a bit on those humble beginnings and how you've built this brand of your own and some of the challenges you've faced along the way? Absolutely yeah. So I I started actually initially pinstriping cars, right? So I was hand-painted pinstripes and then eventually people would ask you to do lettering on their cars with it. So then I started doing lettering and then lettering led to doing signs and then ultimately I really found my passion with truck lettering. So I was, I was lettering vans Probably my first van I did, around 15 or 16 years old, and I got to work with home service contractors, you know, from the age of 16, like, which is kind of crazy, right.

31:50 So I was like literally 16 years old lettering, you know, chevy vans in the back of my parents, my parents backyard, you know, and I remember one of them I did was a chimney sweep company and then I did a plumbing company and then I got a job at a sign shop and that's what we got to do and we got to do, you know, logos for guys and put them on the side of their vans. And I just thought like I was in heaven, like that was some of the happiest times of my life, because I loved lettering, I loved working with topography and we would hand paint these designs on these trucks. And I think even that experience is something that was extremely valuable because you learn so much about the medium when you're immersed in it like that.

32:35 And the computer has taken away some of that. So a lot of designers don't really fundamentally even understand the medium very well because they're designing an environment that's on a screen and not really understanding as much about the reality of the canvas as you would think they should. So for me, if I was going to do lettering and I was going to add a drop shadow on something, there would need to be a reason to adding a drop shadow as opposed to just hitting a button in Photoshop or Illustrator and making a drop shadow. And if it didn't enhance the lettering, then why was I putting it on there? So you learn a lot of these lessons about legibility, contrast and things like that. And the guy that I worked for him and I are actually still good friends, super good guy.

33:16 He just taught me so much about the level that was expected of us from this, from this sign shop, as far as everything that went out the door needed to be at a certain level. We were not going to churn out shit and it needed to be at a level. And there was this magazine called SignCraft later on, I would be featured in it. And I actually wrote for SignCraft for about 30 years, which is kind of crazy. I had about a hundred or so articles published in there, but that was the standard. So he would say it's got to be good enough to be in Sinecraft and that was like the gold standard, like if you made it in Sinecraft, like that was the gold standard. So I learned a lot about that and that philosophy certainly is carried through here Like we're not going to churn out shit, like I don't care how long it takes us, like it's going to be at the level that is expected for kick charge.

34:05 And that's a tough threshold. And the other thing he told me too is the idea of just trying to make sure that you're always improving and nothing that we do today should be considered to be good enough tomorrow. And so that threshold I live and breathe that every day. But it's hard, man, you guys know it's hard to keep doing better than what you did the day before. Like we just won that contest for the HVAC, our business magazine, tops and Trucks, and we swept every single category. So we had there was 10 winners and we had all 10, right. So that's cool, like, and you savor that moment. You're like, oh, this is cool, but now you're like, oh shit. But now you're like, oh shit, like, what are we gonna do next year? Yeah, how do we beat that? How do we beat that like, because the year before we swept also, so like we swept two years in a row or three years in a row, I think.

34:48 But like you constantly are really just trying to think about how you can do better. So that early experience of working with contractors I loved. My parents just didn't want me to be a sign painter. They thought I'd be better off going to college. So I did go to college and I studied advertising and I actually think that that was a really good move for me because I learned the fundamentals of marketing, the fundamentals of advertising design, learned so much about that line of business that I really wouldn't have experienced. And when we think about consumer psychology, you think about the things that go into purchasing decisions. A lot of that stuff. The fundamentals of that I learned while I was at school and then I was still doing signs and lettering. Basically like every entrepreneur, I was kind of doing that nights and weekends and on the side while I was in college and even when I graduated I worked at a health insurance company doing graphic design, which was again another important skill that we learned.

35:40 That I had learned doing brochures, things like that, and I was doing the signs and the lettering nights and weekends and finally it just started to get crazy, like I was putting in 90, a hundred hour weeks for like months and it was brutal. And finally I just said to my wife you know, we didn't have kids at the time, which was probably a blessing because it was a little less scary quitting my day job. So then I quit, and then that, and then that's what we've been doing since, you know, and just focusing on design. And you know, my idea at the time was we could be this company, that a company could get everything they needed to market themselves, and everything started with that logo. So if I did the logo first, then I could do your business cards and your site sign and I could do your website and I could do your brochures and all those other things.

36:21 And so from a very early on I recognized, like, how critical that that step one was. And you know, just, you know, from that point, I mean, I think at this point. We've we've branded over 2000 home service contractors over the last 25 years. We're doing about 200 a year now maybe 250, you know, and you know our plans for what we want to do in the future is you know? I just feel like we're just only scratching the surface of what we could be doing in terms of how many more people we can help. So we do want to grow, we do want to scale a little bit and I just want to try to help as many contractors as we can. So I get frustrated sometimes because we can't help as many people as we would like, mainly because we can't staff, get the right staff.

37:09 Like it's hard, the skills that you need to do branding and then understand how brand works on a vehicle Very, very, very unique skillset. So that's been our biggest obstacle to growing. But we're getting more people and we just hired a couple more illustrators and our timelines have reduced now. So now I think we're only booked out maybe three months as opposed to six. We were six months out for a now. So now I think we're only booked out maybe three months as opposed to six. We were six months out for a while, so we're getting there. So I'm excited about the future and where we're going, but again, the more people's lives we can change, that's what it's all about. And Dan, can I just ask, and maybe to your benefit then, what is that preferred skillset that you guys are trying to employ at this point?

37:54 You know a really, really solid understanding of topography, how type works, how type needs to function in an outdoor environment, and then understanding, you know, consumer psychology behind branding. So you have guys that maybe can design a mascot, perhaps, but then they can't do the lettering or they can't do the type or they don't understand how it needs to function even in that environment. That's why a lot of mascots, especially clip art based mascots, were never intended to be actually used on a truck. So when you blow them up, all the imperfections are visible, the fact that it's not legible from a distance.

38:34 There's very, very specific ways in which you design a mascot that's intended for outdoor use that most people don't understand. That's why, like you see, guys post oh here's my new logo, my new mascot, and it's sad because maybe it'll look okay on screen but when you go to blow it up, the things that it needs to do in that outdoor environment won't function very well. So, again, issues like contrast, the stroke widths that are used to comprise it, a lot of mechanics that go in behind it, but there's just not a lot of people that get it. And the last illustrator we hired, we had 200 applicants and two were qualified. So that's like 1% of every person that applies was actually at the level that we would need them to be to be on our team.

39:17 So that's the good and the bad of being at the top of your game is there's just not a lot of people that are really up to par for what we would need them to be doing. So during this show I actually attached my resume to an email, but I'm just going to cancel that now. I don't think I'm going to fit the bill. We're not letting you go anywhere. No, there's one more story here that's really important and I don't think enough people are talking about it, and we're all about the electricpreneurial journey journey Entrepreneurs who are electricians. But we're all facing this, we're all in business together here and you face some serious health issues in your journey, haven't you?

39:58 Are you okay talking a bit about that journey through, that sort of the cause and how you overcome the health obstacles that have been in the way of this this? yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so I am a pretty hardcore cyclist and have been for maybe 25 years or so. I usually ride around 140 ish miles a week, year round, you know so. So you know, working out and and exercising a huge part of my life, right? And? And um, I knew I had some challenges with my heart many years ago and they had always been watching me and saying everything was fine, and, and so, um, during COVID, I started having chest pains, um, and went to my original doctor and they did a series of tests on me and declared me healthy and I was actually supposed to start training then for the new season, cause it was December.

40:51 So you start training usually, you know you're riding during the regular all that time, but then you really start training around January for the season coming up. And so I was sitting here in the office and I was actually alone because we were virtual at that point and I was still having chest pains and I'm like my something's jacked up here, like, like, this isn't normal, right? Um, so I went to a different cardiologist who then did a different test called the cardiac catheterization. It's where they they thread, like something, a catheter into your heart and then inject it would die, and they kind of watch it on the screen and so, um, it's kind of funny. I was having to test on and they go to the first two arteries in the back of the heart and they injected it.

41:32 I'm watching it on a big flat panel screen and you see it light up like a Christmas tree and I'm like you know, that looks good, like it's going where all this shit's supposed to go, right. And then they did the widow maker artery, which is the main artery of the heart, and injected it in there and then it basically hit a blockage and just like stopped. And I'm watching that on the screen and I'm looking back. It's kind of funny. But at the time maybe it wasn't so funny when I said like I'm like dude, I'm no cardiologist, but I do think that's kind of a problem. And and he got real serious and he's like, yeah, it's, it's a problem and I don't think I can fix it right now. So before, before I went in, he was like if I find something, I can usually stent it and fix it Right. So now he's telling me there's a problem and he can't fix it.

42:14 So so, um, you know they, they wound up doing double bypass surgery on me a couple of weeks later and that experience was, you know, probably the best thing outside of obviously not dying, right. So so the not dying part was was super cool, because he had basically said I was super close to basically them finding me on the side of a road and, you know, because the widow maker heart attacks are, like 95%, fatal. So if you're not near a hospital or someone doing CPR and you have a widow maker heart or usually you're, it's DOA Right. So so, um, you go through that experience. Obviously you recognize that our days here are numbered and that you don't have, you're only immortal for a limited time, right?

42:59 And it forced me to just sort of recalculate my life a little bit and I stepped outside, I stepped away from actually running the agency. I actually don't run the agency day to day anymore. I have an operations manager and she runs the agency and I get to do the cool stuff which I love about starting this company which is working on logos and brands. So that's been a really healthy thing for me as well. And then I got to do some stuff. You know, like I built a house down the shore which should be done in actually two weeks, fortunately. So I bought a piece of land on the water and my wife and I built like our dream house. And that was a result of coming home from the hospital and like, literally, we were watching these you know beachfront renovation shows and and I said to her, like why, why aren't we doing?

43:46 Like, why don't we get a beachfront renovation? Like what? Like we grew up in the shore, the Jersey shore, so like, why don't we get a beachfront renovation? Like what? Like we grew up on the shore, the Jersey shore so like, why don't we do this? And we didn't really have a good answer to that. And I think people always think that you have this time to do the things that you want to do and you recognize, well, I almost didn't have the time to do anything past that point. So why do we need to wait? Like what, what is this benchmark that we're waiting to do the past that point? So why do we need to wait? Like what is this benchmark that we're waiting to do, the things that we think are really important in our lives or the things that we want to invest in? And so, within, within, like I think, eight weeks or 10 weeks of the surgery, when I was allowed to start driving again, like, I drove down and you know we found this beautiful piece of land and put money down on it, and you know it's going to be done.

44:30 And then like, so you know we found this beautiful piece of land and put money down on it and you know it's going to be done. And like so you know not only that, I think the idea of gratitude is the other piece of the puzzle, right? So you recognize that, first of all, just being grateful that you're here, right, so you're grateful, you know, again, the obvious that you didn't die, right, but you're grateful that you have the opportunity to be with your family longer, to be with your teammates longer, and that every day is really that, that blessing. So you know, you know, on the anniversary of when I had that heart surgery, I mean I would literally like think about every single how many days I've been gifted, right? So you know, you know it's it's almost a thousand days that I've been gifted since the surgery, and that's really what, the way I look at it, and so I just try to always keep that sense of gratitude, um, really at the forefront of my mindset.

45:21 Um, don't sweat the small stuff. A lot of the stuff that's going on, most of it's bullshit, like, most of it doesn't, doesn't matter, honestly, at the end of the day, right, I mean, I know what we do here is really important, but you know, the small stuff and the things that you really let get to you, most of it's irrelevant. You know it really is. And so when they wheel you into that OR right, and you know you're, you're stripped naked, basically, and they wheel you in and you're under these bright lights, and then you, you know, you recognize at that point, first of all, there's no, there's no purse with luggage racks that's following you to the funeral home, right, and you're like, well, what was the shit that was really important and what is this shit that was not important that I stressed during my lifetime over?

46:09 So so I look at that event as the greatest thing that ever happened to me. You know I'm so grateful for that experience. Um, it's been. You know, I think I'm a better husband, a better father, a better boss, um, all those things, um, and you know, I think it would be nice for a lot of people not to need to go through something like that to understand it, but I recognize it. It's easy for me to say that and you know, sometimes you need an event like that to sort of trigger some change in mindset. So that's an incredible journey and I thank you for sharing that. There's a quote that's coming to mind and we've been saying a lot lately is show me someone with good health and I'll show you someone with a thousand wants, desires show me someone without good health, and I'll show you someone with just one right, right where it all comes down to.

47:03 We've all heard the stories of the richest people, the wealthiest, the people that had it all, and when they're on their deathbeds, they all are just looking for one thing Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think also too, when you think about gratitude as a fundamental principle and guiding principle for even just running a company. Um, you know, if you guys you guys, I'm sure are familiar with Tommy Mello I don't know if you've read Tommy Mello's new book, elevate. But we lost you, you got it. He's grabbing it. Yeah, you got it so you think about the idea again of of how do we build an environment and a culture where all your teammates win, not just you as as the owner, and I love that about Tommy and what Tommy speaks about in that book.

47:51 And so, again, just being grateful for, even while I was out, like I couldn't work for like a month, like I was a mess, like I had these delusions that like I'm going to be back at work within like two weeks of that surgery, and I came home from the hospital after a week and it's, it's, it's no joke, man. I mean, they saw you in half and they, they stitch it all back together. It's, it's no joke. Like I don't recommend it if you can avoid it Loud and clear. If we can avoid double bypass surgery I will do everything I can. I already stopped smoking. I'm like what else do you need me to do? Yeah, I've already written on my whiteboard avoid the widow maker.

48:32 Yeah, okay. So, um, you know, you just recognize too, like, oh my God, how many people pitched in to make that almost like a non-event for the agency. Like we didn't, we didn't have, you know, we didn't lose sales, like everything functioned perfectly. So I was like, oh, this is cool, Like they don't even really need me there anymore. And on some, on some level, like you know, you want to think that you're the most important thing there, but on the other level, it was really great to know that I built such a great team that you know I don't need to be here. If, if you know, if I don't have to be here, you know what I mean. Like, so it was good to be able to that and you got forced into that. So you have this mindset that only you can do all this shit, right, but then suddenly you can't do any of this shit, and then you see these people step up and really rise to the occasion, and so that was a great experience for me too, cause I recognize, like, why am I involved in shit with payroll and HR and any of those?

49:23 Like, why, like I don't. I didn't start this company to deal with any of that stuff. I started this company because I love doing brands and logos and trucks. So it was great to see how well we did in my absence. And then from that point on I was like I'm not running day to day, you handle it like you know, and it's been a great thing. I think everyone likes it better that actually I'm not as involved in some of those things, so cause I think I'm just happier in general, also just because of that. So yeah, turn the page right, and so many people need to hear that. So I really appreciate you sharing that. I've got just one more health question. Really, and we're on here all the time and our values. We always say health, family, then business, and for so many of us, for so many of the people watching and listening to this right now, that's not the case.

50:11 We think we're focused on us and everything we want, but in reality, the business is run rampant on the schedule. We're working overtime for clients just to try to appease them and then giving family what's left, and in moments like this, I feel like you start to realize again this health piece how important it really is to work on us and have something going for us. Yeah, I want to tie in something important you said to that, because you said you've been cycling 140 miles a week for 20 plus years. Is that right? Yeah, about, yeah, about 7,000 miles a year roughly. Yeah, is that a big piece of that. Was there a personal journey you're on, or do you just?

50:52 yeah, I mean honestly the, the, the, the personal journey on that and how I got started cycling was, um, I had been into cycling a lot when I was younger and then I actually stopped cycling. And while I was in college I really got into bodybuilding. I don't I'm sure I don't look like tremendously ripped right now, but I used to do, I used to lift pretty heavy weights when I was, when I was younger, um, and then I started working and then I stopped everything. So it was no cycling, it was no working out. And my father passed away and it was 1999 and I hadn't worn a suit for about four years. And you know, a couple of days before the funeral I went to go put on a suit and I had put on like 40 pounds.

51:35 So I was like 185 pounds or so and I was like this is like a bad thing right now. And then I was like, well, if I want to lose weight, what was? What was the thing I was really into when I was younger? And I was like, well, I used to love riding bikes, so I bought a road bike and I started cycling. And then I actually started racing, um, road bikes, um, and I dropped like the 45 pounds I think I dropped in like six months or so and I've literally been the same weight. I'm like 150 now, um, but I had, I've been like 150 for 20 years, um, basically because of the cycling. So I, you know, I'll give or take a couple of pounds, um, so that passion of the cycling really helps.

52:19 But the other thing too, to your point, is like the mindset of the grind right. So you hear guys fucking grinding, grinding, grinding. You got to grind, keep grinding. It's all about grinding Right. And then you're like, at what cost does it come? You know, and, and, and I think a lot of social media, you know, celebrities, push the grind. And then you sort of feel like you're, you're, you know, a lazy piece of shit if you're not grinding like 20 hours a day. And, and you know, I find for me sometimes my most productive hours are spent on a bike, because I'm clearly focused, I have no interruptions, I ride with headphones but I have my headphones and my music. And where I live out here in New Jersey, which may sound crazy to people, is very, very rural, so there's just cows and cornfields, like out here.

53:07 So I'm really, really focused and I can think very clearly when I'm on, I'm on a bike, so it may look like, well, I'm not really working because I'm riding my bike, but I am. I am, you know, thinking about things and I'm able to focus on things, and I think sometimes our, some of my most creative brands have come from bike rides and you start thinking, hey, I could be doing that, and your mind just starts going with it and I'm not distracted by text or or Facebook or, you know, chats from the team, I'm just really at my own little zone there. So so, yeah, I do the cycling and then I and I do. I started lifting weights after the, after the heart surgery, because that was something else that was really interested. So I, I go to the gym three days a week and then I, I ride the bike, usually five or six days a week, and you actually just answered one of my last questions I have for you.

53:58 As the hours winded down here, dan, I'm going to ask it anyways because it's that powerful Could you be where you are without that personal journey, without the cycling, without the weightlifting, without taking care of yourself first? It's interesting what the doctors have said is the cycling kept me alive up until the point of when I had the blockages. But they said that would have been what would have killed me if I had continued and not gotten fixed. So the cycling actually did keep me alive, because the heart tries to find pathways to deliver the oxygen and the blood where it's.

54:39 You know, basically circumventing where the blockages are. So all that exercise really did keep me alive. So I'm totally convinced if I hadn't been exercising I would have been dead a long time ago. For sure, a hundred percent, yeah. So you know, one thing I'm going to share as a PSA, while we have just this opportunity, is a test called a cardiac calcium score. Ok, so this is, this is a test. It's like a hundred bucks, you can do it yourself, you don't need a doctor, and it'll measure the amount of plaque that is in your heart. Okay, and that's a good indicator of cardiac health. So it'll say you know, depending on your scoring, we'll give you an indication as to whether or not you may have cardiovascular disease.

55:23 So that particular test I had done many years ago. It did identify that I had a substantial amount of plaque in my arteries. We did some things to try to control that. You know my cholesterol hereditary from a hereditary standpoint was already high, right, so so we got the cholesterol numbers super low, like my cholesterol numbers for the last six years have been like one 20 for cholesterol and LDL at like 40. Those are ridiculously low numbers, but my body still continues to produce cholesterol. It's really nothing I can do. Diet doesn't really affect it and stuff like that. Those are ridiculously low numbers, but my body still continues to produce cholesterol. There's really nothing I can do. Diet doesn't really affect it and stuff like that. It's just a hereditary thing. But that particular test listen, if you're 40 years old or older, I recommend just get the test done and it'll give you a good idea as to maybe having a problem, because otherwise you don't know.

56:08 I knew because I had a really good handle on what my heart should be doing at all times, and again maybe from being athletic and I could tell something really wasn't right. But a lot of guys write it off or they're like, oh, that's stress or it's a bad day. You know what I mean, but you know again, just thank God. I sought a second opinion and went to someone that really knew what they were doing. Otherwise, you know, like I said, he you know it was like a 90, 90 something percent blockages in the widow maker and it was actually two blockages in in the in the artery up there. So he was just like man you're, you're so lucky right now Like I'm, so like. They almost didn't want to send me home from the hospital after the test. It was during COVID, so they thought it'd be safer for me to be home.

56:50 But you know, it was like they sent me home on bedrest. Honestly, it's like you can't get out of bed, it's like, oh, that's comforting. Like, yeah, don't, don't, don't go up and down the stairs too many times. I'm like seriously, so, um, but yeah, no good, you know, take care of yourself first, Otherwise you're not going to be able to take care of everybody else. I appreciate that, dan. You know what I am curious If something were to happen to your health or, as this continues to go on, dan's no longer a part of Kick Charge Creative. I mean, this brand's going to live on. Are you going to make your own mascot for Kick Charge so that you can live on in that brand?

57:32 I don't know, I don't know, but if, if, if I ever, I mean wasn't here the amount of talent in this building and the people that we have, um, I think it would surprise people to know that I don't personally do every single thing that goes out the door. I know I'm the face of the brand and I post a lot of stuff that I'm proud of that the team here has done, but I don't personally get to work on as many things as people might think. I oversee and I make sure every single brand that goes out the door I've looked at and I've given input to. So that piece of it. But you'd be surprised also how many things hit my desk and I don't have to touch it.

58:16 It's perfect. They know what the expectation is. Some of these people have been here 15 years doing logos with me, so they know what the drill is. Wow that's awesome. Okay, guys, if you've been living under a rock for a while and didn't know Dan until now, dan, please tell people who are listening to this, our entrepreneurs, how to find you and how to well get in touch or grab your book. Sure, well, you can always contact us at kickchargecom If you're interested in getting the book and getting it from me instead of Amazon. You can always get it on Amazon just by typing in my name. But if you get it from me, it'll be autographed. It'll be worth hundreds, I assure you down the road. So it's kickchargecom forward slash books, so you can order the book from me, I'll autograph it and send you some cool stuff with it.

59:02 It's a little cheaper, actually, through our site than Amazon. And, yeah, you can always hit me up on Facebook or send me a friend request or just shoot me a message on Facebook too. And happy to hand and listen at the end of the day too, like if you have something that you're doing, and even if we didn't do it for you and you just want another set of eyes on it, or Dan, I'm about to get this truck done. Like, what do you think? Like, just hit me up. The saddest thing I see is when people get stuff done that ultimately isn't going to help them and sometimes it's, sometimes it's simple things I could tell them to do, like, hey, just have them change this, make this white, make this black, you know, whatever the case may be. So if you find yourself at that point and you're ready to get something done, listen, I will never not help another home service contractor that's trying to build a better life for them and their family.

59:53 Just you know, hit me up. I'm not like I'm not. I'm not going to try to sell you on our services in that process. I'm just going to try to tell you what about it that we can. You can maybe improve with the person you're working to and what to look for you know. So you know, happy to give back in that manner. That means so much, thank you, thank you. Thank you, joe. Do you have any questions before we let Dan go? And before we let Dan go, I just want to say, Dan, honestly, we are so honored to have you here. I mean, the things that you're doing for the industry is amazing. But the one thing that I'd want to know specifically for all the electricians listening out, is if you could give advice to electricians specifically, anything in particular, any little bit of nuggets that they can use to say I'm an electrician and I want to grow my brand today.

1:00:37 Do you have any little gleams of wisdom or nuggets you can drop on us for that? So I would say this one simple thing you can do is, if you go on Google and you type in electrician logos, that you click on the image tab and you see all the research results that comes up. If your brand looks like something that you see in that search result, then why would it? Why would anyone remember yours specifically? So just try to think about branding in a sense of it's okay to not be obvious. It's okay to have a logo that doesn't use a lightning bolt, like it really is. Sense of it's okay to not be obvious. It's okay to have a logo that doesn't use a lightning bolt, like it really is, because the more you can stand out and be disruptive, the more chance someone has to remember it.

1:01:22 Okay, and that's ultimately the same thing you see with roofing companies. Like, if you Google roofing logos and you look at the search results, they all have that you know a roof peak and I get it. Okay, well, now I know you do roofing. What's the name of your company? Again, oh, I don't. I don't really remember because I was so focused on just the roof part I've I didn't really recognize the name or whatever. You know what I mean. So so just try to think a little bit outside the box and avoid the really painfully obvious symbols. It's the same same advice I give to an HVAC guy to stop using red and blue arrows or sun and snowflakes, you know, because no one is really going to remember that specifically to them. It's so common, it's so overused. Just try to think about something that would be uniquely crafted for you only.

1:02:03 It makes a ton of sense. Thank you, dan. Let's do something different, like we did here today. Dan, I got to tell you this might be one of my favorite interviews ever. We went from a clinic to tear-jerking stories, to culture and helping electricians. Man, I can't thank you enough, guys. This has been another great episode of entrepreneur secrets the electricians podcast. We're here with you five days a week to help you master sales, simplify pricing and deliver premium level service. If you didn't, marketing is directly attached to sales. If you can attract it, you might have a chance to make an offer, and Dan, the man here, has helped us do just that today. So thank you, guys, very much. We'll see you again next time.

1:02:43 Thanks guys.